AS 67: Amazon Highjackers and Trademarks with Suzi Hixon
27 Oct 2016
Today I’ve got Suzi Hixon on the show, she Suzi Hixon has been practicing intellectual property law for 13 years, and specifically trademark law for 11 of those. She’s been a private label seller on Amazon and knows the obstacles sellers face on the Amazon platform.
What we discussed:
- How to protect your amazon trademarks
- Why Amazon Brand Registry helps in Brand Gating
- What products are easily highjacked?
- Who are these Amazon highjackers?
- Are all Amazon Highjackers bad?
- How to confront an Amazon Highjacker
- How to not confront an Amazon Highjacker
- How Amazon Highjackers are on the rise
- Mistakes sellers do when highjacking occurs
And much more!
Contact Suzi Hixon:
David Aladdin: Great to have you on the show Suzi, can you tell us a little more about yourself?
Suzi Hixon: Thankyou David, thank you so much for inviting me, I am happy to be here, happy to talking about trademarks and protecting your brand on Amazon, a little more about me, you do most of the important stuff but I live in Kentucky on a farm and I practice law from my back porch. So I guess that’s the thing that kind of makes me unique attorney, I don’t work for big law firm, it’s just me and my chickens, I don’t like them help me in any way but they do…yeah but that’s just a little more about me kind of personal stand point.
David Aladdin: I feel like so that the farm life is a lot slower, I hear like everywhere else outside, do you have that same kind of feeling like the life moves slower than the rest of the world.
Suzi Hixon: Absolutely, yeah, I have lived in bigger cities and on farm and further more I kind of wanted to move back to the city but very recent I do kind of appreciate the slower lifestyle but when I first moved back like if I go somewhere on the road and they were really like going slow I would just go speed up, go faster but now I am so like oh my gosh I’m like the slow one on the road now. So I definitely think that there are times it moves a little bit slower.
David Aladdin: You mentioned that you were practicing law on the farm like what made you want to practice law to begin with?
Suzi Hixon: It’s a really good question, well it goes back 13 years ago, I graduated from law school in 2003 so probably got my edge a little bit from there but I was biology major in college and honestly I got to go to a little bit of art school and I really didn’t know what I wanted to do so I kind of extended this education to 3 or 4 more years so that’s why I went to law school, I had a science background, I was able to take the pack of law for a couple of years and it wasn’t really a good fit for me, after I prosecuted 5 pack of applications so, it’s so boring, I couldn’t handle this.
I got involved in trademarks and that was 11 years ago so. I don’t really know if that answers your question why I wanted to. 11, 12 or 13 years ago when I was practicing law, being kind of working remotely wasn’t something people thought about then you know it wasn’t probably until 5 or 6 years in practicing law that it was like wait a second why am I chained to this desk at my law firm, what is happening like I didn’t know my life would be like this you know I would explain this to people that I worked with that they don’t understand most part that practicing law can be done from any location, you know with internet I can work from a different location to provide the same services to my clients.
A lot of law firms proportion still have the fancy marble floors, leather bound books and all that good stuff but I well thought that a lot of my clients you know especially that I like working with are smaller businesses and they are paying for a lot of stuff that goes along with the law firm, bigger firm so I thought that well I am going to start my own practice and you know try to lower my fees a bit because there is not just that overhead that a lot of law firms have. So that kind of for a while went slow 12 years ago. Definitely had ups and downs.
David Aladdin: Oh, I have got so many questions, I don’t know which one to ask first, you practiced with another law form before you started your own law firm. I totally get it. I was an engineer before this and I got so bored by the stuff that they gave me. I wanted to do my own stuff, I wanted create my own products, you know I wanted to create business or do something that I wanted to do every single day and when you work for a business or a law firm that’s not yours, every day you are working with it just doesn’t add up, it’s like you are building a pile of work that contributes to your success everyday.
So I think you pivoted and you created your own practiced but yeah I talk to doctors and some of my family members are in the medical industry and they have considered starting their own practices but there is something holding them back like the upfront cost in doing it, I mean you started your own practice, was there a lot of upfront cost in doing that, how that goes for you?
Suzi Hixon: You know there wasn’t a lot of upfront costs for me because I practice on computer, I didn’t have a fancy like law office, I don’t have stacks of law books that you see in a typical law firm so things like were able to minimize. Of course, I do have typical expenses that law firm have like I have docketing software for docketing platforms that I have to use, just typical insurance and things like that. Law forms spend a lot of money on space, bigger firm, they still being on the 40th floor of building in downtown so that’s where a lot of money goes in keeping the lights on, particularly their office spaces and of course a lot of attorneys will have at least a couple of people supporting them, each one can have legal secretary so those are just additional expenses.
David Aladdin: I actually watch suits a lot, I don’t know if you are familiar with that show.
Suzi Hixon: I haven’t watched it yet, all stereotypes, well hopefully I don’t, people say like you don’t seem like a lawyer I say thanks.
David Aladdin: Every lawyer, like lawyers come off as very intimidating, they ask upfront like they have got big wooden desk they are sitting behind, everything inside is just like wooden cabinets surrounding and they are very upfront and serious. It’s a certain personality thing I think to. So let’s talk about trademark, where to start, what kind of issues do you see sellers have with trademarks.
Suzi Hixon: I see a lot of situations where sellers are filing on without talking to attorney about it first which is fine but I think it’s a good idea to talk to trademark attorney before filing. One thing that mistakes a lot of people make is that they don’t properly craft their goods description and when you file a trademark from EOCPO to provide the description of the goods and services that are related to the trademark and people will don’t chose something like, let me give an example like a grill spatula thinking that it’s going to be imported.
I’m probably going into this from their perspective but thinking that they are going to import these grill spatulas which is great but well but at some point they have to show UCPTO that they are using trademark on the product. Well after filing at some point they realize that its grill spatulas, at some point they are going to get me because the application that was originally filed would not cover the me clause, it would be covering the grill spatula.
So, I try to be, When people are filing their trademark application they need to be as broad as possible as UCPTO will permit them to be and looking at the ID manual at UCPTO website it will help with that but if you buy an application there is a chance you will get rejected and you will have to revise and narrow down a little bit more but that point is 4 months after filing, you will have a little bit of direction where your products are gonna be, whether actually you are filing for the wrong product.
But I see two other mistakes, I see on where people are filling logos instead of filling the application black and white. They will file it in colour and claim colour as part of the mark but in reality they should just file it in black and white. Filing black and white gives you a broader perspective.
David Aladdin: Let’s say we have a trademark and I have a trademark and it’s very narrow and I need to expand it, do I need to follow another trademark or do I modify it. What’s the strategy?
Suzi Hixon: The US PTO will not let you expand the scope of it’s goods at the original file. So that’s kind of where the problem lies, like you can’t expand but you probably will have to refile. There could be ways around it depending on the situation but typically you can’t expand the scope after the file. I’m sorry if you had any bad experience.
David Aladdin: I feel like our trademark and paten processes are outdated since 50s and 40s, we still got a certain paper work where you actually, they had an online database where we could just click and edit you know and then resubmit that application, I mean that would be so much easier.
Suzi Hixon: You can buy trademark from online all of that is online and you can do all of your responses online and you don’t have to send any paper work. Now the Patten office, has been a little bit slower but I don’t see it moving towards paper but your trademark, you should do online, I will be honest, I have been doing this since a long time and I have maybe filed a handful of things via mail like on paper and it wasn’t normal prosecution stuff, there was an opposition going like where I had to challenge another trademark on behalf of my client or maybe of course USPTO but my client trademark got challenged. But for most part, 99.99 percent of the trademark that you can do, you can do it online. You can do it on the USPTO website.
David Aladdin: Okay so if I had a very narrow trademark, I would have to create a new trademark and that would be under the same name pretty much, just broader scope of what it protects because that’s kind of how you do?
Suzi Hixon: If you filed a trademark for really narrow scope of goods and you are like oh no I need to be expanded, you will have to re-file that trademark, and it can be for the same trademark, for the same owner for everything so well what happens at that point is depending on whether or not you are using the mark for that originally filed goods, you may or may not want to let that trademark application you filed one but you may not want to but it kind of depends.
David Aladdin: Darn I think I got to go back to my paper trails.
Suzi Hixon: Well if you want me to look at it, I will be happy to.
David Aladdin: That’s very nice of you. Ok so if I had, we can talk about that later. If I have trademark now and I have a highjack on my listing, what are your steps you take there?
Suzi Hixon: Ok well the first thing that you are going to need to do is if you have a highjacker on your Amazon listing right. You first need to figure out if this person is really a highjacker. You have got to figure out do they have maybe authorized product or somehow get hold of giveaway obviously that’s been going away now but sometimes products legitimately get in the hands of another seller and in that situation there is really not that you can do.
One thing you can do is buy a product so and then do whatever you want to do with it but the problem with having third party sellers on your listing whether they are selling legitimate products or not is sort of sore the initial value of your overall listing and if they are undercutting you by 5 dollars that could obviously hurt your bottom line because people are purchasing from them and it depreciates the proceed value of your brand.
You know that you charge $45 for car charger, it’s awesome looking package whatever but if you get a third party seller on there and somehow they got your product liquidation, giveaways and they have listed for $30, you don’t want there to be any perceive depreciating value of your brand. So let’s say you take a look at it and you figure it out, okay, is this legitimate counterfeiter, that situation what happening is , that third party seller is selling a product has some material difference from your products in there and that difference can be defined pretty much anything. If you offer an extended warranty.
I am going to show you something I have got. I ordered this headset, wireless earphones whatever the other and I ordered from the company called Plantronic and they offer like six month free extended warranty and this little card with the packaging, now someone starts selling the exact same headsets but they don’t put that in there, that could be considered real difference even if its exact same product. If there is a product that doesn’t reflect your branding that’s considered to be a counterfeit, we have seen a lot of that someone has branded the product packaging but the Chinese counterfeiter will hop on the listing and sell the same product but it’s not attached to the same packaging and they sell out fraction of the cost.
For sure, this can be happening to brand owners, you know with a lot of money into branding and that is something that we have to get rid of pretty quickly so that’s my roundabout of coming getting to the point now what would you do, if you find out he is a counterfeiter, what would you do? The first thing I do is sent that counterfeiter a decent letter, I think it wise and ethical thing to do to first send that counterfeiter this letter because they might, there is some kind of a saying like, don’t presume malice when ignorance could be the explanation.
And in some situations you do have people that don’t really know what they are doing, it could be a seller who hops on your listing and what you really want to do is jeopardize another seller, I mean you really don’t. I know it’s very, I know it’s seller’s accounts but you don’t have to. Get that decent letter out as soon as you can, as soon as you figure out in fact counterfeiter and you know don’t delay on that.
I have heard some people say that they will drop their pricing a little bit just temporarily, just to make sure that, just to get you more competitive to get the buy box. In that later, just recently that I have sent, I make it clear what the differences are in the products and my client’s products and their products and also make it clear what Amazon states is in what their approach to counterfeits and they take counterfeiting very seriously and in some case they take counterfeits more seriously than anything else because it comes down to consumer experience.
And I know consumer centre is very, very important to them. I give a very specific deadline like here the 27th, if I send it out that letter, I would give that third party seller 48 hours, I specifically say October 29th 1 PM EST to get off the listing. I think it’s important to make sure that you are aggressive and you are monitoring your listing, also quickly we look at some other points that I send these to counterfeiters.
David Aladdin: I had a counterfeiter on, not a counterfeiter but they just bought my products somehow to the manufacturer and I have a patent in the US and so I did send them a letter and it did work, sometimes you are right it can just be a mistake between some wholesaler manufacturers that are trying to add another product to their line and they just didn’t do enough research to start that product.
Suzi Hixon: Sure, I see that a lot. One thing it’s important to put in your letter if you can, I am trying to think, I send it from a lawyer, if you have any questions or concerns, please have your attorney contact me and that’s a good way to make it clear that my clients not playing around here and really at the end of the day I don’t want to correspond with someone that isn’t representing, if they are not going to comply, if they think that they are allowed to be on that listing then they need to run it back to and follow up with me. That hasn’t happened. Zero. I do send a lot.
David Aladdin: I am trying to narrow it down so they know.
Suzi Hixon: The dorky attorney I am talking to, whatever clause.
David Aladdin: It’s interesting that no one has actually challenged when a lawyer send a cease letter as I know when people challenge, when the actual seller try to do the cease letter, it seems like the technical details you have in the email might just stop that potential seller from selling the same product.
Suzi Hixon: Well that is not to say that seller doesn’t hop off the listing because I do have situations where they just tell us they don’t take their stuff remove themselves. I never really had a situation where sellers come back oh talk to my lawyer because 9 times out of 10 they are not supposed to be on that listing. Yeah and they know it you know.
David Aladdin: Have you seen highjackers on the rise or has it been decreasing, what do you see there?
Suzi Hixon: Definitely on the rise.
David Aladdin: I don’t want to hear that.
Suzi Hixon: I know but I have a check listed tips but I haven’t you know the people who are listening visit my website and take it out. The things you can do to help your brand on Amazon for the highjackers but there are things you can do to your listing to make them stronger, anyone who’s listening can visit my website. I am kind of tweaking that check list you know every few weeks.
David Aladdin: Do you know the link to that checklist.
Suzi Hixon: Well my website is www.theprivatelabellawyer.com and then when you go there, you will see down a bit if you scroll down you will see the checklist. Just for my experience trademarks knowing how you used trademarks manage combined with the experience that I had dealing with people who sell on Amazon you know just little things like oh these are the listings that kind of improve it and maybe doing this will help you to determine counterfeiters.
David Aladdin: Did you freeze over there, oh you didn’t. Okay so let talk what not to do. What have you seen maybe clients or not clients handle high jacking case that you wouldn’t recommend us to do?
Suzi Hixon: Oh that’s a good question, sending an email claiming that you have some type of intellectual property type but not outlining what those intellectual properties are. If you are going to make a claim you need to say I am also the owner of this particular trademark that we have been using this trademark since 2010. It’s really important to not get in a big hurry, otherwise they will be really upset if they see someone listing that you aren’t subsidy.
So they fire up these letters and this really makes so create your own template and make it really good robust template, you know you don’t have to create the will every time you see a counterfeiter, you can create this sort of letter that you do put in your trademark owner information, just make sure you list what your actual property is because if someone gets this cease letter and the person goes this is my trademark XYZ and so there is areference number, that is a major pain, people kind of blow that of because it’s not that professional so just make sure you put it in before you send that cease letter.
David Aladdin: One of my friends that I talk to, he is actually filing for a trademark and we briefly touched on it, there is other brands that use the same words but for different products and he was debating whether or not to create a new trademark based on different category, what is your advice in regard to that.
Suzi Hixon: When an application for trademark is examined at the US PTO, they will look at the application and decide whether or not it should proceed to the application process and they will consider a number of, one of them is likely to hit a confusion and the examiner attorney will look at back at US PTO records and see what trademarks are already out there, if she comes across that can be considered confusingly similar to the examines, she will surely consider rejection. Of course an applicant can respond to it, overcome the rejection with arguments and say this is why we are different from the private label mark.
So in that situation you mentioned, I have to point out that there are a lot of different factors that go into that analysis. It’s not just looking at this mark, looking at this mark and looking at the related goods. You have code existing trademarks for totally different goods and you know this, that’s how you are relating to. Think about delta faucets, so there is also delta airline so you can have these code exiting marks that are simple however the other factors that can be considered are.
So they will look into a lot factors, chamber of commerce, whether the purchasers of a particular product are savvy and sophisticated, do they research, it’s like pick up a stick of gum at the gas station and there isn’t really you know what a lot of cool stuff when you pick up you know and you purchase like that. Of course the other consideration is the same underlying the trademarks so you are probably never going to be able to register Starbucks for anything. You know no matter what you are doing, it is such a strong trademark that you know you can be making boats, maybe you can be a boat manufacturer and if you try to register you know Starbucks boats, it’s kind of not happening.
So I know a mistake that a lot of sellers a make, a lot of private label sellers make and I hope not, when you are choosing your trademark, when you are choosing your brand will choose really descriptive trademarks so let’s say they are importing me claw or meet claws like the new process, let’s say they are importing meat claws, let’s say someone is importing meat claws and they are like we need to come up with a really cool trademark for meat claws and let’s just call it as meat claws, you know let’s just change the spelling a little bit.
The US PTO is going to consider spelling variation and when you say something like meet claws even if you spell it with meet, they will still consider descriptive of that underlying product so I always try to encourage people to really try to selecting trademarks that are descriptive of that product. It’s really good to look for, try to find marks that are sure ready that’s always great and clever, but marks that are suggestive of what the underlying product is and some examples of suggestive trademarks are really big trademarks, one pepperoni, your dog lover so you should appreciate pupperoni and that’s for the dog treats so they have kind of eluded what the underlying product is but they didn’t gave away the whole boat.
David Aladdin: I guess we can go now in creating the brands and trademarks, you know pupperoni is a great example of great brand and trademark at the same time just because known creating that trademark for sure branding wise, it tells you what the products about so.
Suzi Hixon: It doesn’t tell you too much what is it about and that is where people run into problems when they tell oh this is too cute yeah people do their trademarks a bit too descriptive, they have basically given everything away, people want to do that because it is a different marketing example it’s easy but from trademarking example point it is very difficult to get your trademark registered if you apply for a descriptive mark.
David Aladdin: You are like one of the most passionate people I have ever met on trademarks. I noticed you have a speciality in brand grading.
Suzi Hixon: Brand grading itself not a new concept and people who do what is called retail and online arbitrage maybe be familiar with a brand being graded and they buy a bunch of Adidas shoesfor 50 percent off and then try to Amazon brand rejection and they get notice that says you have to have the brand approval owner to list you know your products against it. I have kind of learnt that why can’t wait a second instead of dealing with highjacker or counterfeiter like you give one account a better, have another one week or two, why can’t you work with Amazon to help my clients setup restrictions around their particular brand, So if you have a brand on Amazon, if you have brand grading since 1st of July it’s definitely been an alarming process for me as well.
You first have to be part of Amazon registration program because when the restriction and the grading is set up it is typically tied to brand grading like you need to do that first. I have been told by Amazon that just because brand is a part of Amazon brand registration program does not mean that restrictions would be put in place so you know I have to work really hard with Amazon what is required and you know one thing is that they want is they want to see it but expedite the grading, if you have counterfeit activity, if you have a lot of counterfeit activities then Amazon will help you get user restriction. I have been able to get it several for very small clients so it’s a misconception that grading is for big companies, you know big brands, luxury brands, mega brands, it’s not necessarily true although they will be subject to have this grading to be put up being wrapped around them but anyone can apply for it as long as they are registered.
David Aladdin: I have never heard someone brand grading their product, I have heard big brands doing it but I didn’t know it was possible to smaller brands and but is that kind of filing a support ticket, what, Is there a certain contact we have to talk to.
Suzi Hixon: If you follow the ticket they are going to say they have no idea what you are talking about. You can try it but that is probably what you are gonna get on Amazon but they can do it I do have clients, I have contact internally on Amazon that I basically, I tell people that I did everything traveling short of Seattle to figure out how to get this going so. It’s definitely possible.
David Aladdin: That is really cool. You know I haven’t personally highjacked, yeah, it’s a secret and I am trying to dig into it.
Suzi Hixon: We all have trade secrets if you are an attorney.
David Aladdin: In the last podcast, I was talking about, there was this one brand that was destroyed on counterfeiters and I know they had a lawyer present in them, it wasn’t you obviously. I saw on CNBC and he had all of these counterfeiter products that he created on the basis of product and just so he couldn’t prevent them from getting black so I feel like he kind of feel the grading scenario setup, he would be fine. Alright, if you don’t do it, you can completely destroy.
Suzi Hixon: I will be happy to talk to them and see if I can help him because people are going to start bailing on Amazon if they had a situation where they are constantly dealing with counterfeits. You know there are product bailing issues, both my clients and Amazon you know when you are dealing with that kind of thing, I know I had client and you know to touch products that sell food so their products are certified and know what could possibly be coming from china counterfeiters so there are a lot of other legal issues that go along with counterfeits, it’s a very dangerous thing and Amazon’s interest is best to sellers. I know that Amazon wants a lot of sellers and wants a lot of entities to be able to sell but at the end of the day Amazon also does want to be subject to product liability issues. So when I do make brand grading request to my Amazon, if its someone, if it’s a client that does have products that touch food or supplements, you don’t see that a lot but it’s still very important to third party listings even if somebody like supplements because think that the supplement could be hanging around the garage for a year, you know temperatures that aren’t good for products and you know can lead to certain type of liability issues.
David Aladdin: I agree that would be pretty gross because you don’t know what the person didn’t touch and it’s going into your body no good.
Suzi Hixon: Yeah you know it does to you I mean as a seller you really want to minimise the number of hands that touched your product so when you do the brand grading it helps the counterfeiters from hopping on the listing. Once you get grading setup, it doesn’t discriminate counterfeiter from legitimate third party that you came across the liquidation cell good because you don’t want your product out there with someone gone from the liquidation so that’s where brand grading is really helpful. One thing I should point about brand grading is that third parties can still list use something like so they can’t list the product as new and of course PTO that they are trying to get around that you know listed as new and description alright, probably branded so when the grading takes it place, what happens is that a third party seller will go to their listing or central selling dashboard to list the ASIN and they would get a notice that you must have the brand owner’s permission to sell this product as new. Ok ay so they will have it as new or happen around that they can list as new so you will have that, people will try to get around.
David Aladdin: Other than that, I have read that you are an Amazon seller as well as alawyer, how is your product line doing?
Suzi Hixon: I started selling on Amazon last December, like my stuff got in around warehouse during holidays like almost instantaneously I started making sells so got really excited, oh yeah this is awesome. Then I did another product in spring, wait in winters yeah like February maybe and another stuff on the factory and it was a total flop, I still have some stuff in the warehouse but I am not proactively selling on Amazon at the moment, honestly I am just practicing law and helping sellers on Amazon what I Know about but the good things is that it really helped me as a seller to learn the seller central dashboard, to learn the lingo, and just how things work and as a seller that has given me a lot of good experience.
David Aladdin: Are you ready for fourth quarter this term, stocking up.
Suzi Hixon: No not all, one of the products, I probably should have brought but I am just busy in ticking these counterfeiters for curb that you have no idea how am I doing that so maybe I’ll do it again or like I sold one a couple of months ago, and I was like yeah. I mean selling is hard and when I started looking into PPC and like this is overwhelming. You know really understand how it works and educate people with PPC.
David Aladdin: What is PPC? What is that PPC you speak of?
Suzi Hixon: Yeah I was like what is this you know, yeah consider the complexity of it, our prices are low.
David Aladdin: The thing is that it’s exactly like law, law is mostly complicated and most of us don’t understand it and the one that do sell super well on it. And that is how Amazon and eCommerce is like the people who are very tech savvy are gonna sell like people who are beyond average, slightly below average or like they are lawyers or something, what.
Suzi Hixon: What we are doing in Amazon is a sort of hobby and to be honest I mean I did as a hobby and wanted to learn that’s kind of instigate you look into it but it it is not get quick kind of thing, you have to work, you have to work at this. It’s a full time gig and you should be ready to have obstacles and you have to figure it out how to overcome obstacles you know this recently there were new terms about not permitting reviews and exchange for products, it’s not Amazon’s chain, people forget about that. I have seen people saying in Facebook, I am not gonna even get into this like it’s crazy, I think if it’s the only obstacle you are gonna face as a business owner, you have no idea. You need to just go and work in corporate world, sales.
David Aladdin: Well it’s the way they have been taught to create products, you know they are supposed to launch using massive giveaways and that’s their one way to get reviews and when they realize how. Well we got five minutes can you do some closing statement as well and tell us how we can reach you.
Suzi Hixon: Closing statement, it sounds like closing argument. I have never been in a court room except try to get my own tickets, I am not like the other attorneys I guess in a way. My closing statement, if you are a seller on Amazon and you want a checklist and about ways in helping you determine counterfeiters, make sure you check out my website. There is a free template there, go there and download it, any questions about it let me know, you will be then be on my mailing list. If you don’t want you on my mailing list then shoot me an email, it’email@example.com and if you don’t want that updates, I will be happy to provide that list to you without signing up or things like that.
David Aladdin: You are building your mailing list, I liked it. You know the golden nugget is there that everybody needs to build a mailing list, it’s the best way, you know I have found it the best way to create a lasting business so.
Suzi Hixon: David, I want to mention that about building your mailing list, this is that the people are doing is building their mailing list off Amazon and I know Amazon is really protective about their customers and a lot of people freak about like oh no I can’t email addresses for my customers but if you put a little card in your product that if you want to register for six extra months, doing like that, the card I showed you all helps in gathering email addresses and also one of the distinguish thing for counterfeiter so if you are doing it for counterfeiter, you can use it as one of your argument as why your product was different but I am gonna just point it out that Amazon is Amazon playground and they make the rules so building that emailing list as an eCommerce seller in Amazon id so important for people right now. That’s definitely something we are going to be looking in 2017.
David Aladdin: Awesome, that was an awesome secondary closing statement.
Suzi Hixon: It’s more legal related, not business related.
David Aladdin: That’s ok. Thanks for coming on. We definitely appreciate your expertise and knowledge advice that you gave us today. David Aladdin and Suzie Hixon out.
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